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--></style></head><body lang=DE link=blue vlink="#954F72" style='word-wrap:break-word'><div class=WordSection1><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-GB>Dear Antonella, dear Panas,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-GB><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-GB>thank you very much for elaborating on this topic. The different Points of you are very interesting and definitely something to think about when doing a SEM. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>Best,<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>Lucie <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:red'>(she/her)<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal>PhD candidate<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>General Zoology<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>Martin-Luther-University Halle-Wittenberg<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>Hoher Weg 8<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>06120 Halle (Saale)<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>lucie.baltz@zoologie.uni-halle.de<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div style='mso-element:para-border-div;border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm'><p class=MsoNormal style='border:none;padding:0cm'><b>Von: </b><a href="mailto:panatheod@gmail.com">Panagiotis Theodorou</a><br><b>Gesendet: </b>Samstag, 3. Februar 2024 13:55<br><b>An: </b><a href="mailto:antonella.soro@zoologie.uni-halle.de">Antonella Soro</a><br><b>Cc: </b><a href="mailto:lucie.baltz@zoologie.uni-halle.de">Lucie M. Baltz</a>; <a href="mailto:mitarbeiter.zoologie@lists.uni-halle.de">mitarbeiter.zoologie@lists.uni-halle.de</a><br><b>Betreff: </b>Re: [Mitarbeiter.zoologie] Statistical club meeting - SEM</p></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Dear all,</p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>It seems that I missed a very interesting seminar....</p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>My view on this is somehow similar to <span style='font-size:10.0pt;color:black;letter-spacing:.15pt;background:white'>Lefcheck. In the SEM framework the goal is not to find the best model that fits the data. In the SEM, you test a theory and then you consider whether or not the model is consistent with the data. However, in this regard, do correct models really exist? Are there any equivalent or near-equivalent meaningful models or hypotheses? and what about parsimony? </span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;color:black;letter-spacing:.15pt;background:white'>Since I started using this framework the debate is still on in regards to model selection and goodness-of-fit assessment in the SEM framework and beyond..</span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;color:black;letter-spacing:.15pt;background:white'>In general someone cannot avoid subjective judgement (similar to all statistical methods) that should have a solid theoretical basis.</span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;color:black;letter-spacing:.15pt;background:white'>All the best,</span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;color:black;letter-spacing:.15pt;background:white'>Panas</span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;color:black;letter-spacing:.15pt;background:white'> </span></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><div><p class=MsoNormal>On Sat, Feb 3, 2024 at 10:34 AM Antonella Soro <<a href="mailto:antonella.soro@zoologie.uni-halle.de">antonella.soro@zoologie.uni-halle.de</a>> wrote:</p></div><blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0cm'><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.5pt;color:black;background:white'>Dear Lucie,</span></p><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.5pt;color:black;background:white'>I thank you very much for this material and for your presentation, which was definitively useful in many respects. I understood things I did not understand before.</span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.5pt;color:black;background:white'>A couple of hours after your presentation, i have attended the weekly meeting with richard McElreath and asked him specifically about whether it is appropriate to use AIC criteria when running SEM and he reiterated that it is not (his words: “it is wrong”). </span></p><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.5pt;color:black;background:white'>even if less categorically <span style='letter-spacing:.15pt'>Jon Lefcheck says the same thing:</span></span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><em><span style='font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black;letter-spacing:.15pt;background:white'>“</span></em><span style='font-size:10.5pt;color:black;letter-spacing:.15pt;background:white'>Users should take caution when exploring these techniques as to avoid dredging the model. SEM is a technique that relies heavily on informed model specification. Adding paths in that are suggested by the data but not anticipated by the user only in an effort to achieve adequate fit might be appropriate in other applications, but ignore the basic philosophy behind SEM that relationships are based on <em><span style='font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>a priori </span></em>knowledge and intuition<em><span style='font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>” </span></em>[italics is Lefcheck’s]<em><span style='font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>.</span></em></span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.5pt;color:black;letter-spacing:.15pt;background:white'>Thanks again and a good week-end to all,</span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.5pt;color:black;letter-spacing:.15pt;background:white'>Antonella</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><br><br></p><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div><p class=MsoNormal>On 2. Feb 2024, at 14:19, Lucie M. Baltz <<a href="mailto:lucie.baltz@zoologie.uni-halle.de" target="_blank">lucie.baltz@zoologie.uni-halle.de</a>> wrote:</p></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Hey everyone,</p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal> </p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>attached it the Presentation and some Paper that might be usefull for you. In my opinion the one from Shipley and the one from Garrido are the most helpful ones.</p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal> </p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>If you want to use SEM, this link will be the most helpful! <a href="https://jslefche.github.io/sem_book/index.html" target="_blank">https://jslefche.github.io/sem_book/index.html</a></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal> </p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Best,</p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Lucie</p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal> </p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:red'>(she/her)</span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>PhD candidate</p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>General Zoology</p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Martin-Luther-University Halle-Wittenberg</p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Hoher Weg 8</p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>06120 Halle (Saale)</p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><a href="mailto:lucie.baltz@zoologie.uni-halle.de" target="_blank">lucie.baltz@zoologie.uni-halle.de</a></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal> </p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal> </p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal><10705511.2020.1871355.pdf><Ecology - 2013 - Shipley - The AIC model selection method applied to path analytic models compared using a d‐separation.pdf><Methods Ecol Evol - 2021 - Garrido - A model selection approach tostructural equation modelling A critical evaluation and.pdf><nihms661496.pdf><qt490131xj.pdf><rohrer-et-al-2022-that-s-a-lot-to-process-pitfalls-of-popular-path-models.pdf><s11135-017-0469-8.pdf><Structural Equation Modelling.pptx><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif'>_______________________________________________<br>Mitarbeiter.zoologie mailing list<br></span><a href="mailto:Mitarbeiter.zoologie@lists.uni-halle.de" target="_blank"><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif'>Mitarbeiter.zoologie@lists.uni-halle.de</span></a><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif'><br></span><a href="https://lists.uni-halle.de/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mitarbeiter.zoologie" target="_blank"><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif'>https://lists.uni-halle.de/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mitarbeiter.zoologie</span></a></p></div></blockquote></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal>_______________________________________________<br>Mitarbeiter.zoologie mailing list<br><a href="mailto:Mitarbeiter.zoologie@lists.uni-halle.de" target="_blank">Mitarbeiter.zoologie@lists.uni-halle.de</a><br><a href="https://lists.uni-halle.de/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mitarbeiter.zoologie" target="_blank">https://lists.uni-halle.de/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mitarbeiter.zoologie</a></p></blockquote></div><p class=MsoNormal><br clear=all><br><span class=gmailsignatureprefix>-- </span></p><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#3D85C6'>==========================================</span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#3D85C6'>Dr. Panagiotis Theodorou</span></p></div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#3D85C6'>General Zoology, Institute of Biology</span></p></div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#3D85C6'>Martin Luther University Halle-Wittenberg</span></p></div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#3D85C6'>Hoher Weg 8, Room 6.10</span></p></div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#3D85C6'>06120 Halle (Saale), Germany</span></p></div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#3D85C6'>Phone: +49(0)345 55 26511</span></p></div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#3D85C6'>Email: <a href="mailto:panatheod@gmail.com" target="_blank">panatheod@gmail.com</a></span></p></div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#3D85C6'>Web: <a href="http://panatheod.wixsite.com/panagiotis-theodorou" target="_blank">https://panatheod.wixsite.com/panagiotis-theodorou</a></span></p></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#3D85C6'>===========================================</span></p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div></body></html>